As I mentioned in this mornings email, I received the following
email from Stan James, on Friday:
Dear Sir,
All Stan James accounts are reviewed on a regular basis
by our Trading team, and due to betting patterns on this account the decision
has been made to close it.
I would make you aware that this decision has been made at
the highest level and will not be reversed. Any open bets will be honoured, and
any outstanding balance will be returned to you via your normal withdrawal
method.
Kind regards,
The Stan James Team.
It would appear that I wasn’t the only one to receive such
an email: Neil and Reno both also got similar – whilst Adrian, had his BOG concession
removed on the same day…
Coincidence ? Unlikely…
Anyway, the purpose of this post is simply to gather
together peoples experiences in this area.
Examples of when and how accounts have been closed; and
suggestions/methods for over coming it…
It’s already a big problem – and it’s only going to get
worse as bookmakers look to clamp down more on accounts that aren’t profitable
for them (and I would hope we all fall into that category !).
I’ve already received some good input from a few of you, so
if you wouldn’t mind cutting and pasting it into a comment here, then everyone
can read it and we might be able to build a strategy (or at least a repository
of useful ideas)…
Obviously all input will have to be via comments on this
post – which isn’t ideal – but depending on how things evolve, I can maybe look
to smarten it all up at a later date…
Thanks in advance for your input !
A.
Hi guys
ReplyDeleteHave only ever had one account closed ,that was Victor Chandler
Didn't even have the decency to let me know,only found out when I couldn't deposit any funds,rang up,to find out the problem and was told my account was closed after review
I hate Victor now when ever I see him in those bloody adverts!
That was before joining TVB but have a feeling it could happen again Very soon!
Iv been closed down by everyone apart from Ladbrokes, Hills, VC, 888 sport and sky bet (although my bets are restricted to low stakes on sky bet and I don't have a BOG facility on VC)
ReplyDeleteI tried opening accounts in other peoples names mainly family but if the postcode is even close to mine the accounts is restricted/closed almost immediately. It's very frustrating indeed, although working for a bookies myself I know that if you are a liability then the traders will stop you from betting, it's the nature of business unfortunately.
All my accounts started to get closed when Andrew started the early bird project in 2011, once I was beating the SP they just didn't want to know.
In my experience the worst ones were Coral and Boylesports, I'm pretty sure they closed my account after one double priced winner though I'm sure I was monitored prior to that.
I've had every account closed or restricted to meaningless multiple times. The main culprit has been Equine Investments but others have been closed that i've avoided EI bets. The problem is when bets are placed, the bookies will realise all the bets round about 8.30, especially on quiet days, for a certain horse are from the same source. Once they realise the source is consistently beating SP we're no longer welcome.
ReplyDeleteUse as many male friends or relations as you trust to open new accounts as any female accounts seem to get shut far quicker.
One piece of practical advice which might be of use concerning VC. Pretty much everything I have backed with VC has won which certainly makes it a winning account. I lost the BOG facility over a year ago but am not limited in any way, nor banned from doing any offers. The only explanation I can give, which I had seen rumours about on matched betting forums when I deposited; is not to withdraw. It seems to have worked. I will admit 99% of the money in the account just sits there. I am determined to carry on though until Victor personally rings me up and calls time.
ReplyDeleteHi all,
ReplyDeleteAndy asked if I could post the following that I sent to him earlier. It is a copy and paste of an earlier email that I wrote on the train so I may fill in some further detail later, however I'm just out for dinner and my wife will go mad very shortly.
I spent the last 4 years working for a financial trading company on the dealing desk, this involved pricing markets etc etc. Thankfully I managed to get myself a new job as I hated it. Anyway the reason I mention it is I spent the majority of my time there catching clients that were taking advantage of our prices. (Ironic considering we all took advantage of our competitors prices and I do the same now with the sports betting) however I never closed accounts merely slowed down their trading. It is a very manual process though, there were 12 of us working on the dealing desk over the 3 shifts and I was the only one who actively looked for these accounts and bothered with the analysis. I wouldn't be surprised if the situation was the same at the bookies and it was only one or two people actively looking out for these accounts.
The process for me would be as follows and I can guarantee it is almost identical for the bookies (I worked with a few guys that came from sports betting). Determine p&l for accounts on a weekly basis and compare to number of bets made. Anyone with very few bets a week and showing a profit I would then run their accounts to see what bets they had placed. Run the reports to show me everyone who traded on the same markets. Whoever is running the reports will have a cut off number of bets where he doesn't bother checking account unless they have made substantial money. It is too much work to check all profitable accounts every week. The way to not show up in this process is to have placed more than this cut off number of bets. (What is this number? I'd say more than 1 bet a day or more likely 10 bets a week) if we all placed a few minimum bets (£0.10) on a completely random market or a real speculative mention so we don't view it as throwing money away. It may stop us showing up quite as regularly. The other option would be to halve our stakes and place two bets. Bookies want volume. I'd suggest this approach with Stan James it will stop accounts showing up at least until they change their search criteria.
Happy to answer questions and discuss further.
Dan
I recognise that SJ email word for word! Looking at my last 30 days bets with them I had 0.5 win on the Boyfromnowhere which won at 9/1 on 17/11. Since then my losing bets exceed my returns from that bet by a small margin. For me SJ are not even up for the fight which is disappointing but not overly surprising.
ReplyDeleteWrt other bookies Bet365, VC, Hills, Ladbrokes and PP are fine for me. PP prices go mega quick though. Coral and Betfred can often offer minimal stakes but tend to hold their prices longer than the others. Boylesports - I've given up on them since a winner at Royal Ascot. Since then every bet is automatically referred, stake reduced. Waste of time they are IMO.
I lost my SJ account about 5 years ago, I used it mainly for football betting (following Football Elite) who hit a purple patch and I won a few quid but hardly fortunes, £50 on 11-10 shots is hardly big time, but I was closed and that was it.
ReplyDelete5 years on, I've re-opened a new SJ account, in my name again, and its been fine...for now anyway!
No problems at all with any of the others thankfully.
I have had my pp,boyles and Lads accounts restricted to pennies,I feel the best way to keep ur accounts open is to not take the very best price early in the morning,also keep the stakes similar at all times,I use betting shops when I can too as u can keep under the radar,at the end of the day if u are making a profit u will be closed eventually
ReplyDeleteOne point if you are opening an account with sj after having one closed. Change your first name if possible, my closed sj account was in the name daniel lee and my new account is dan lee, it's not much of a difference but when they search for accounts they check first name, last name and dob. So even just the one change will get you by for a while. Obviously better if you can use a completely different post code.
ReplyDeleteHi All
ReplyDeleteHad Tote and BetVictor closed sometime ago BEtFred is ridculous as far restrictions and Boyles haven't closed but won't accept any bets. Ladbrokes accept bets to a small stake which is often ok for me. Corals refer all bets to traders but do accept most bets. Bet365 (my main account) and William Hill know problems to date. Stran James used to restrict but then allowed my normal stake until last Friday when BOG was removed. The last TVB winner was with them straight after this so waiting for another letter! On other forums I am aware others have had to use other names and addresses of friends and family and use different IP configurations. Also read somewhere else, (might even have been here?) that bets should not be placed with exchanes as soon as the tip comes out because then the subsequent bets with the traditional bookies could be perceived as arbers who are not welcomed by any bookmaker. I have noticed that the exchange prices do go very quickly with TVB which may be those of us that have had all their accounts closed? Finally I agree with something else I read that our part of the betting job is to secure the best price and although this is not always easy it is possible but we need to think creatively and be prepared to put the work in. This is where such a thread can be helpful.
Hi.
ReplyDeleteI'll through my thoughts into the pot about the situation about being unable to get bets on. Im not going to bother naming the firms, we all know who are the worst culprits for shutting down very quick, the same names have kept cropping up more than others, (step forward Stan, Joes, and my personal favourite,which I havent seen to my amazement, SportingBet!)
Pricewise & HT - No offence to these 2, but if you get the prices, be it shops or online, in my opinion you might as well wave a red flag asking to be restricted or closed. Im not denying they are very good, however, you follow these 2 and are asking for trouble. I remember I went into a Billies shop I'd never been in before, had £40 on a HT horse at 12/1 (under the PTL limits they have of £500), anyway went in again 2 hours later, had £20 win on a 5/2 poke. They rang it through to their office, as I was "an arber". Anyway, suffice to say, since then I have left him alone.
To add to the above, Frank mentioned about Equine Investments, and I can say the same about Isiris and Henry Rix. You follow these guys, and the well known tipsters (be they free or expensive) and if you get the prices, you will not last long before the inevitable axe falls.
Furthermore...
The point,which Dan has hit the nail right on the head, and one I want to elaborate on. Obviously, we all want to get the best price on the selections, but in my experiences, you have to flip the coin over and look at it from the other side. If someone was betting with you, taking top price, betting on horses only, and either beating you on price, winning or both, you would not want their business!
ReplyDeleteTherefore,what I do is the following.
Look the matched betting angle on a number of sports (American Football, Cricket, Darts, Golf, Tennis, Football, Motor Racing etc etc). I try not to be typecasted as a "Horse racing" punter. I'll do short price singles on the TV stuff, on a game with little or no loss (e.g Back at evs, lay at 2.02) to try and look like the Betfair ad guy, sat in pub having a bet. I also do acca bets on short price favs, i.e 1/10, 1/8, 1/7s etc, all at different times, so you can lay off individually for absolute pittance or no loss. If you can mix and match sports, all the better, and also, I tend to do this if I have had a losing day on a particular account.
Say Andy has gave 3 bets all 1 point win all have lost on the same account. If thats cost you £30, have a £30 even money bet on the evenings highest profile football game, and then lay this off @ 2.02, or something along those lines if the opportunity presents itself. I feel this could be interpreted as chasing behaviour to try and win your money back. We've all seen the character in betting shops who blindly back favs, and try and win their money back on their next bet. Also, Mark makes the point about withdrawals. Personally, I withdraw every day aside from over the weekends. Again, I try to look at it from a betting shop punters perspective, they would collect the following day to play it up, not leave it idle for days on end.
Blackjack
Every now and then,I'll play on the Blackjack playing minimum hand stakes, and basic strategy (this you should lose 0.5%). So when gambling £100, in theory should only lose 50p. Never works out like that, but if you set yourself a mark of what you are willing to win or lose per time you play, you should obviously lose, but only tiny amounts.I would quite happily lose £10, but this is tiny in comparison to the prospect of losing accounts, and abilites of obtaining the top price and so on in the long run.
Obviously, The above is not going to be everyone's cup of tea, However,If you are looking at 2 accounts, 1 bets horses, top price, always in the morning infrequent punter, the other bets varying sports, varying times of the day, singles, multiples, goes on the chase if horses have got beat earlier in the day, blackjack. etc etc. You have to take a view on which of the above you would be more willing to conduct business with!
Adrian above mentioned about being creative, so there you go!
I've tried all the look like a mug punter whilst hedging into Betfair games, all i've ended up with is being allowed to back anything except the horses that I really want to back.
ReplyDeleteAs for Sportingbet last account first bet £50 Ruben Cotter 10/1, SP was the same, next bet restricted to win £20. Their licence should be withdrawn.
I think there is some really good stuff in here – and I would particularly like to thank Dan and Steve for their contribution – top work guys !
ReplyDeleteI think we all know that there are no easy answers – but I also think that we can make it more difficult for the bookies to spot us…
Whether individually, we consider it worth the effort, is a matter for us each to decide – but there are some very good ‘hints and tips’ in here…
For my part, I will help with things as much as I can.
I won’t tip into weak markets – and as you know, I am loathed to tip a horse when only one bookmaker is offering a stand out price.
I’ll generally try to tip later rather than earlier – though in that situation, there is always the danger that one of the big guys will beat me to the punch (and my personal circumstances will occasionally dictate tipping times)…
Like I say, it’s not going to be easy (unless I can crack profitable betting at BSP !), but I reckon we can put up a decent fight – if we want to…
A.
Just out of interest for anyone who got their account closed what time did everyone place their bet on hidden horizons 10/1 with Stan James? You should all still be able to log in, just run bet history for last 10 and it will tell you time on there.
ReplyDeleteThe reason I ask. I was in a meeting on Friday and couldn't place the bet till 11:35. I'm guessing that most of you managed to place the bet within 15mins of Andy issuing the guess again tip where he mentioned HH. If not then, then when the write up was issued.
ReplyDeleteThis suggest that they have a watchlist and as soon as one of the Bettors popped up on there they watch out for anyone betting the same. I am 99% sure my account is still open because I was 45mins after everyone else and they had simply stopped watching.
Did anyone else place the same bet and not have their account closed? If you did and it was either when Andy issued the guess again tip or when he sent out the write up, I would say with near certainty they are using your account as a flag!
I issued the tip notification at 10:33; backed it at 10:34 and got the account closure notice at 11:38...
ReplyDeleteThat narrows it down. Did anyone bet on HH before 11am and not get closed? I'd leave a small account open if I was working there!
ReplyDeleteI backed HH at 10:42. Account closure email at 11:58, 15 mins after the ringleader!
ReplyDeleteDid you also back Lady Olwyn with them the previous day, Neil..?
ReplyDeleteAndrew no, Lady Olwyn was backed elsewhere. On Friday I backed Max Bygraves and HH with Stan James.
ReplyDeleteI backed Max Bygraves with them as well...
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately our industry trade paper have a love in with their Betting Partners and will not rock the boat wrt account closures and bets being limited. An interesting topic nonetheless and one that should be given more publicity in the media. You don't have any racing journalists lurking within the group do you Andrew?!!
ReplyDelete[edited comments from yesterday. I didn't appreciate my full name mentioned here, as part of my profile]
ReplyDeleteI backed HH at 10:37
My friends at SJ closed my account on 11:50 CET (10:50 GMT?l)
Backed Bygraves at SJ as well
Can't recall I got the email on 13 minutes later, but that's what it says on the tin.
By the way, I see a well known punter (who might as well follow TVB) lament his WH account being restricted as of today. Not necessarily because of a TVB selection, but he follows other value-tippers. Friend of mine's Tote account was restricted over the weekend. All in all, the topic of closures and restrictions would appear to be a trending topic as of late. Bookies cleaning up before the new year? I, for one, will keep my head low for a while.
i had a dozen or so accounts closed/restricted over the last 5 years and as we know you dont need to be winning for this to happen
ReplyDeletei never had a bet over £3 with boylesports and they stopped me after a couple of months lol
anyway off topic a little ,just been in the local betfred shop wanting a score on st etienne tonight
15/2 on the coupon ,put the bet on as you do walked away looked at my ticket
11/2 .
had to go back and explain i wanted the bet cancelled to the girl and she had to get someone else and i had to explain again and after 15 odd minutes i had my score back
surely this should be pointed out to you when you put the bet on
watch out :]
Some terrific posts on this thread and some very, very familiar tales. I could add my own ad infinitum, but suffice to say I've been restricted by every bookie that appears on Oddschecker on various occasions.
ReplyDeleteI'm afraid there really is no right answer as to how to avoid restrictions and everyone has their own methods that might, or might not work for others. This is a problem - there's only a couple of definable patterns, which have already been identified, and, sooner or later, these 'bookmakers' will restrict you. To indulge myself and tell just one story, the most ridiculous experience I had was with Stan James. 6 bets placed one Saturday morning (think it was on the day of the old Tote Gold Trophy), with a maximum stake of £100 and even before they'd run, my account was closed. Explanation was simply 'traders have reviewed your bets and it's not business they are prepared to take'. In other words, they'd priced up wrongly on certain horses and I'd done them!
Like everyone else, I don't have a solution that works all the time. All I've done is open up accounts in other people's names - friends, family - and run them until they're shut down. Sometimes it takes a little time before the bookies cotton on, other times they do it very quickly. One other tip is to hide your IP address and there are various pieces software you can download to help you with this. Bet365 are particularly good at linking IP addresses despite different names and addresses, even when the address is in a different part of the country.
The other tactic I use is for ante-post betting only and I appreciate not everyone would be able to do this. I simply place cash bets over the counter. I live on the border of North and West Yorkshire and in an area where, on my way back from work, I can get into 3 Ladbrokes shops, 3 Hills shops, 2 Bet Fred shops and a Coral. It's a pain in the arse, but if it means I get 25/1 with, say, Ladbrokes, when the horse is 16/1 with an alternative on-line bookie I can still place bets with, it's worth the minor hassle.
To finish, I'll cut and paste an email I had from a senior Hills trader - his title is Group Trading Director. He's an Aussie who came over to the UK a few years ago to play cricket in the league I play in and he met and married a local girl. He gave me a bit of a send off when I was out and got a volley of agricultural abuse back, so, feeling a bit bad, I bought him a beer after the game and we got chatting. As soon as he said what he did for a living, I got into his ribs and he promised to look into it. He sent me the following reply to an email I pinged over after the end of the season:
ReplyDeleteG’day mate
Unreal last day , for sure. Proper cricket day really , and their 14yo kid blocked out 30 odd overs, so hats off to him. They choked at the top again , we had them 19-6 (so some may say we choked after that !).
Firsts won, so we had half the club as happy as Larry anyway , and after 6 red stripes we forgot about it and pretended we all played for the firsts !
Re your account mate there is an account under the username of *******, *********@yahoo.co.uk. It has £1200 sitting in it. The account is suspended as maybe a credit card address didn’t match up or something anyway . Looks like there was one £300 bet on darts which returned £1200 , a few years ago.
All your accounts (well accounts that we think are linked to you), have trading restrictions, mainly around , arb player and early bird movers. So I suppose to be brutally honest , if your business is all that you won’t last long again I’d suggest. They were all restricted and closed before I became the boss, so if you want I can get this account that has funds in it , re-instated and you can have a go again, but no hard feelings if we turn the tap off again that’s all ?
Speak soon mate
Terry
Fair play to the bloke, I've been using the account again for the last 2 months, initially, with few restrictions, but an increasing number are being referred to traders. Happily, I've stung them for plenty in that time :-)
And in case you're wondering, of the 6 Stan James bets, I had one placed runner and 5 losers, with a total loss of £215. Tossers!
Good luck everyone.
Just tried to place £10 on I Know The Code with 888
ReplyDelete£8.25 placed and the other £1.75 sent to be approved and then refused
Hardly a massive bet!!
Latest Totesport now limited to win £10 on horses despite losing £800 in 2 months.
ReplyDelete